Recently, the Gibson Guitar Company was cited for violations of CITES and the Lacey Act. They were accused of using wood that was illegally harvested in Madagascar. This is a complicated issue, but very timely and worth listening to the podcast. CITES has many implications for musicians traveling with their instruments across international borders. SO if you become a famous rock star, your instrument has to be "cleared" before you can pass through international borders. You have to have documentation that the materials in the guitar, if they are in Appeneix I stuff are pre=CITES.
http://www.fretboardjournal.com/podcast/podcast-41-cites-lacey-act-and-gibson-guitars-raid
The article below also explains both rules. Lacey Act is a US law, CITES is an international treaty. Lacey Act encompases the CITES treaty and the Endangered Species Act.
http://www.eia-global.org/forests_for_the_world/Lacey_Act_CITES.html
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31 comments:
In the podcast I find it interesting to only here about what is being done to Gibson, the Anerican company. If this is to betruely stoped the German shipping company needs to be punished as well, that would require co-operation fron the Greman government. Cites and the Lacy act, acording the the article and the podcast seem to be effective, but I wounder how many undiscovered violations that there may be.
The podcast was very interesting. Though I am confused as to why, this case has been blown up- but no charges have been filed. Also, why was the Gibson company accused twice within a few years? If CITES and Lacey truly believed this woods were illegal and that they were from protected area, why not stop Gibson in it's track from importing these woods? I understand that there are certain loopholes that companies can take to get these woods. Gutarist are most like more willing to buy exotic wood for its sound and appeal. Which may lead to the companies importing illegal goods for economic gain. Back to the theory..."it's all about the money"
@ Travis. I agree about co-operation with the German goverment. These kinds of issues need to be more international.
I believe that is is kind of wrong for someone to take your guitar away if you didn't know that the wood was illegal. But then agian its works for the best because how do you know the difference between someone who honestly didn't know it was illegal and someone who says they didn't know and is lieing?
@ Travis S.:
That is a good point. I'm glad that the CITES and Lacey Act are effective; but I do wonder how many undiscovered violations there are.
There should not be such an issue. It's like this... if a musician is trying to transport his guitar out of the country, present the paper work or just don't bring the guitar.
@ Nicoe Rogers I forgot that confinscation to an innocent guitar player could happen. In that case i feel bad for them, but hopefully they are aware by now from the media attention.
It's interresting to hear what the caller had to say about it. I feel like the caller was trying to defend Gibson by saying that the people who working for the people who got the wood for Gibson were shady. In my honest opinion, both sides were wrong. Gibson was wrong for not putting people on the ground in order to regulate where and what kind of wood was cut. The harvesters were wrong for harvesting wood out of areas they should have known were protected. Also, like the caller said, for every one case like Gibson's, there are 100 cases that go undetected underground.
@Nicole. You're right that it isn't fair for a person not to be able to bring their specially made guitar overseas just because they can't prove that it's not made of a certain wood. On the other hand, there are caveats so that if you get all the right paperwork you can still bring your favorite guitar to Europe.
So Gibson takes from Madagascar, gets raided, takes from India, and gets raided. Seems like a trend here. There may be previous or future violations, this probably needs to be watched. Additionally, the Lacey Act is a US specific law, while CITES is international. The capabilities of each are different.
@ Nicole Rogers.
Use a lie detector. It's not the most accurate, but it would work in most cases. I understand that the wood should not have been taken, but it wasn't entirely the guitarist's fault, and it's not like the wood can be returned.
After listening to the podcast, I wondered about this "noggle" or "naga" middleman who's profitting from violating CITES and seems like he is getting away with it. I don't think CITES will be very effective unless it's seriously implemented in the developing countries that are home to these endangered species. But since they are developing (probably poor) countries, people like "noggle" will continue to cash in on violating CITES. Also, is it harsh to completely shut down Gibson Guitars for illegaly selling endangered wood twice?
And I'm still confused about the 3 different Appendices or appendixes--whatever--of CITES...
@ Everybody who wrote a comment before me. It looks like these laws meant to protect the environment ain't what theyr're all cracked up to be sense we're all complaining about who isn't being punished and how simple the rules should be to prevent confusion of the best way to follow the law. But kudos to the fact that these laws are a start. :D
Being a guitar player, I'm surprised i didn't hear about this... But knowing that the wood can make a difference in the way the guitar plays, I can see why Gibson would choose an exotic wood to make guitars, but it does not mean i condone it. They knew they should not have used the wood, so punishment is necessary, but not to the people who own the guitars. You can't make a guitar back into a tree, so they should let them keep the guitars.
@Nicole Rogers I agree that they shouldn't take the guitars away. Guitars mean alot more to guitarist than people know. They didn't make the guitars they just bought what was sold to them. I was going to buy one of these guitars because it was supposed to be a good guitar, if the price wasn't so ridiculously high. At the time, though, i had no idea it was illegal to use the wood.
This podcast was very interesting to me simply because it reminded me of illegal immigrants. CITES and the Lacey Act are both frustrated in attempt to get guitars made of illegal woods, but how reliable is this search? Is it really possible to seize all of the illegal guitars? Like immigrants, they may find a few hundred or thousand, but at the end of the day, there are probably millions of these guitars out there. I think that they are picking a fight that it is completely impossible to win. I also wonder why they are so bent on victimizing Gibson.
@ Nicole, I agree with you expressing sympathy for the people whose guitars are taken when they don't realize that they are illegal in the first place. It shows that ignorace of the law is no excuse from it; however, i so believe that people who have given their money to purchase these instruments deserve to keep them if they were unaware of these law.
This podcast was very enlightening and the connection between the IRS and the Lacey Act helped better my understanding of the situation. It seems in this situation, however, the transaction that occurs between Gibson and wood suppliers are shady. Unfortunately, because it is impossible to determine the source they obtain their materials, little can be done in terms of determining the guilty party. It's difficult to consider how many times something like this goes unnoticed and, as a guitar owner, I may need to do more research when purchasing my own musical instruments.
@ Devin T
Nice comparison to illegal immagrants, I never thought about it thaty way but its true.
@Devin T
I completely agree. To what extent should these precautions go and can future occurrences be prevented? It is difficult to determine.
First I'd like to say how during the podcast the Lacey Act and CITES were actually explained. It made the situation a bit easier to understand once you actually know what the base is. Also, I like how there was a caller on the podcast to discuss as well. Obviously a crime has been committed, as this was in fact illegal... It should be watched but that simply falls on how reliable CITES and the Lacey Act really is, to solve this.
@Sarah O'Hern. Good point about determining the guilty party. If the true source can't be found it's hard or near impossible to figure out the true form of the crime.
This podcast was very interesting. It's interesting that the Cites and the Lacy act are working and seem to be effective. There is a problem with these guitars and the Cites and Lacy act are doing something about it.
@Gabe I agree with you about not punishing the people who own the guitars because they would not have known about the guitars being illegal
Well, this was a very interesting podcast. I discovered a few new things. Obviously, Gibson and the wood suppliers were not doing things by the book. With that being said, people should not have there guitars taken away just for crossing a border or traveling outside the country. Why punish the people if they new nothing about it?
I'm just wondering how true of an impact CITIES and the Lacey Act has on the environment, especially here in the USA. For instance, when I lived in Washington state, there were dozens of places just around my area that were protected. I lived right on Puget Sound and it appeared that CITIES and the Lacey Act were fully enforced there: among other restrictions, you weren't allowed onto the beach from October to May. This was to protect the native species (nobody wanted to go on the beach at those times anyway - it was freezing!). Also, how do they determine that logging is illegal? Is it just when a certain species of tree is endangered? I ask this because while the middle part of the state was generally unaffected by the logging industry, acres upon acres of Eastern Washington was torn up due to logging. It was actually quite a horrendous site. I know we have to get our wood from somewhere, but shouldn't there be some sort of law requiring companies to plant x amount of trees for a certain amount cut down?
I enjoy this this class because it opens my eyes up to what is going on in the world. this podcast was interesting and as my fellow classmates have stated there are many things that dont make sense and need to be fixed. I feel that people owning the guitars should not be punish because there is no hard core proof that they knew and even if they did know we should not be trying to stop the buyers but the producers. Also cooperation with other countries need to be tighten.
@marilyn I totally agree with you thats is why the world is so corrupt today because its all about the dollar sign. money and power are in my opinion the two main corruption in the world.
@ David I also agree with your statement. It is there fault for dealing with shade people. it is almost like getting something off the black market.
The fact that CITES and the Lacey act are effective is enough for me. There are so many laws that aren't effective that it's pleasing to simply see one that is.
@ Travis You bring up a good point. The laws seem effective based off of what we know. The undiscovered violations may create a much different view of the matter.
I'm glad that I had the opportunity to listen to this podcast. I second @Brittany when saying this class truly opens my eyes to environmental issues, and gives me a better understanding of current problems. It's a little bit hard to grasp whose at fault in this case. The guitarist was unaware of the laws and they took away his guitar? That's not cool man. He probably payed quite a bit of dough. But on other side CITES and the Lacey Act are important things to be inforced so where is the line to be drawn?
@Gabriel
I bet you DID buy that illegal guitar, and now this is just a cover-up to say "Oh, I didn't know!" STOP BUYING ILLEGAL GUITARS!
That last comment that said Kamie, was actually from me. I forgot to sign out of my mommy's google account. My bad.
I agree with mostly everything that has already been said by my peers. I'm glad to see the CITES and Lacey act taking initiative but i don't see it necessary to take the guitars made by exotic wood's from people who purchased them because there is no way to truly know whether they bought the guitar knowing it was illegal. There are two sides to every story and i don't think there is any way they can accurately accuse people owning these guitars.
@Travis S.
I completely agree with what you said about the German shipping company to also be punished. If you're going to enforce a law, you have to enforce it on everyone involved.
While the Gibson guitar company shouldn't have had the exotic wood in their possession, the way CITES and the Lacey Act were exercised to go against the company was also wrong. Like others have also stated, once a tree is cut down, a person can not take the wood and transform it back into a tree. I think that we will see many more cases like this one if the middle man in the developing countries isn't stopped. There is simply too much ground and forest to cover all at the same time for protection against illegal logging. I'm glad to see that both policies are being enforced.
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